In-depth character discussion: Max

[Don Vecta]

As promised, I'd try to write a guide for Max since I was hearing some comments that he sucks or he is awesome, etc. so i decided to Encyclopedia-Brown this bitch and well, here's some of the things I found. I'll be posting movelist, overview, abusable moves, weaknesses and maybe some enemy strategies. Also feel free to contribute and put your thoughts, especially if I'm posting something wrong.

So, first of all, MOVELIST. Copied from the movelist thread.

Max Thunder.

Normal attacks.

Rush combo - B B B B (Chop, Chop, Hook Punch, Hammer Smash) Hook punch has up to 4 hits depending on enemy hit box and range. Hammer Smash only combos on SOR3 Pause Delay)
Back attack - B + C (Mule Kick)
Special - A (Lariat) Invincible
Special 2 - forward + A (Dashing Tackle)

Jumping attacks.

Vertical jump attack - C then B (Aerial Hammer Smash)
Jump attack - forward + C then B (Drop Kick)
Diving attack - C then down + B (Flying Elbow).

Running attacks.

Blitz (0 - 1 star) - forward forward + B (Slide Kick) Knocks down early in animation, leaves standing if it hits later. Doing the late hit into an enemy getting up usually leads to a free grab or combo afterwards.
Blitz 2 (2 stars) - forward forward + B (Diving Tackle) Max is INVINCIBLE during this move. It can grab an enemy, which bypasses blocking characters. Depending where it hits, or if an enemy was already grabbed, it will just knock down an enemy for much less damage.
Blitz 3 (3 stars) - forward forward + B (Rushing Diving Tackle) Max does a multi-hit dash attack before doing a Diving Tackle. Max is NOT invincible during the dash, only once he is in the air.

Grab attacks (get close to an enemy).

Neutral Grab - Grab, B (Headlock) Max crushes the enemy for up to five hits, the last one knocking them down. He is vulnerable during this, however you can cancel with his lariat between hits.
Rush attack - Grab, hold forward + B B B (Knee, Knee, Headbutt)
Backwards throw - Grab, hold backwards B (Backdrop)
Jump throw - Grab, C then B (Air Throw) Max cannot vault, instead he can jump with and throw characters.
Backgrab throw - Grab from behind, B (German Suplex)
Backgrab jump throw - Grab from behind, C then B (Backbreaker)
Special Grab - Grab, X (Powerbomb) Uses meter.

Weapon special attacks.

Pipe/2x4 (NOT BAT) - forward forward + B (Jumping Smash) Has two hit frames, first does not knockdown and it's even possible to get both hits with the right spacing on some characters.
Sword/Katana - forward forward + B (Horizontal Slash)


Overview.

Max is certainly the slowest character of the whole roster and as implied as a trope, the strongest of them all. Now, the "slow" part it's only in walking and running movement, but even his running it's quite decent (picture CVS's Zangief with the running animation and you got it), he still can move quite fast all over the screen thanx to his pretty awesome blitz moves. His slide would make him cover 3/4 off the screen easily in less than a second, his cross chop tackle the same and his 3-star blitz runs through the whole screen.

Now, many people think Max relies *ONLY* on his power damaging grabs, which is a completely false statement, Max's whole moveset it's quite good in all senses possible and here I'll break it down why:

Rush combo: Even though it is slow, it has decent range, it is constant and few enemies can escape from the combo (compared with, for example, Adam's which is an escapeable rush combo on his last hit). Also, the damage input it's insane AND the hook punch has a huge range and hits multiple times. Come on, it's even possible to hit enemies from behind! Overall it could land from 5 to 6 hits, depending of the enemy position and placement.

Back attack. Hits twice, has decent range from behind and does good damage.

Dash Tackle. Very safe move and it's the nightmare of those block-happy enemies like the Muay Thais, the Ninjos, the Goldies and some bosses like Barbon, Shiva or Rudra, since even if it's blocked, the chip damage it's quite solid and sometimes in the attempt of countering attack you, they get hit by the shoulder. It is also a good running movement but of course you'll waste stock or life.

Flying drop kick. Great range and damage, good to dispose of some enemies from a mid distance to knock them down.

Diving flying elbow. While it's not as abusable as it was in SOR2, it's still a great move to land in enemies and grab them since it has decent range and even as a dive attack has good damage.

Blitz 1 Slide. Great start up move. Good to move fast over the screen. Safe from high attacks (can avoid Abadede's rushing clothesline) and has good priority. Excellent to reach enemies and grab them or rush combo them. Damage it's average but it's a very useful move.

Blitz 2 Cross chop tackle. IMO, the best move of his whole arsenal. Abusable to death, has invincibility frames, and the damage input it's insane. Can dispose of close enemies and grab a poor sap from an extra chunk of pain. Might be slightly vulnerable while standing up but timing it well and you could avoid being hit (probly doing a special afterwards if someone's reaching from behind?). Some usually tough bosses become sissy bitches with this move.

Blitz 3 Charging cross chop tackle. Honestly, not as hot as the second one. While it's a great move to move over the screen, it's precisely this feature that it's its biggest weakness. The charge hits the enemies but don't push them back enough to get the whole combo of charge/cross chop/grab tackle and at most the enemies would be left behind after the first or second hit of the cross chop, leaving Max whiffing the tackling dive. Now, while he's still on the tackling move he is invincible but, as mentioned above, he is tad vulnerable while standing up and the odds of getting an idiot retaliating from behind are a lot bigger than the Blitz 2 so tread with caution, it's not as abusable as the blitz 2 and it's a lot unsafer.

*update note for v5.0a: His Blitz-3 got improved a lot since the charge motion advance got slowed thus it's a lot more reliable and easier to make an enemy eat the whole set of attacks, including the grab tackle. Of course, don't make it too close or his tackle grab would whiff.


Why Max's grabs are so dangerous? Cuz he's a fucking wrestler! (Grabs overview and techniques).

Now definitely Max's damage party comes with his set of grabs. As mentioned above, it's not his only strong feature but definitely the most damaging of all of them (of course, if you wanna rely only in the grabs then you are fucked, considering his movement it's slow in walking and running, if you try to apply a Rudra's run and grab chances are you'd be busted up in the mug before u even get 3 feet from the enemy).

So with that in mind, you DO want to grab an enemy with huge energy bars.

But how to approach, considering his normal movement speed being so slow?

1) Blitz 1 slide. Do it calculating the position of your character and your enemy so you must hit the enemy AND standing up at two or three frames and then grab them. Positioning it's important, going too early and you won't reach the enemy to grab (you still can do a rush combo if you must, but you'll have some frames at disadvantage and the enemy might move or counter attack so be careful) or in the least worse case, knock him down with the last hit of the slide. Going too late and you might hit the enemy with the slide but then they might retaliate while u stand up.

2) Jump dive attack. Not as reliable as in SOR2 but still quite good. Big advantage is that if you run prior to the jump the range gets bigger and you can grab them easily. Big disadvantage is that enemies now move like if they had rockets up their asses so sometimes they'll move out of your way.

3) If Muhammad won't go to the mountain... Seriously, though, then let the enemies come to you. By backfiring the now hyperactivity of some enemies, some of them are in such a rush to move move move move move that in plenty of cases they'll end up asking you for a hug and then you can be happy to oblige. Try also to be on the move to, this works well if you are moving up and down and since they'll try to round you up to outflank you, odds are that you grab them while they're trying to pass over you.


Now, which grabs to use?

Backdrop Suplex. (grab, back + B or grab from behind + B) Good to knock other enemies around, invincible while performing, rather quick recovery. If there's no immediate enemies around, land two knees if you can.

Air throw. (grab, C then B in mid-air) This is useful when there's few enemies around but you are not surrounded by them yet. Good to throw the mook to other bunch and do a bigger damage than the Backdrop. Same, before enemies surround you, do the two knees if you can. Avoid using it while surrounded cuz you might be stopped mid-air by an unwanted jab.

Neck choker. (grab then B neutrally) The most damaging grab of Max's arsenal, hands down. However, vulnerable while performing it, thus it's highly advisable to do it when you are one-on-one with an enemy with huge lifebar... like a boss or sub-boss. Needless, to say, land two knees before going for the choke so you can drain easily a x1 bar to the enemy.

Atomic Drop. (grab from behind, c then B in mid-air) This is the single hit grab with the highest damage input (the choker hits 5 times to get its full damage done). However, since Max can't vault enemies, it's a bit hard to get on an enemy's back (unless you are with an AI companion, which it's a lot easier to sneak behind an enemy's back). But if you THEN DO IT! It's gonna have the end of his spine whacked like if you have stuck a phone pole all over its ass! Now careful, avoid to use it while surrounded cuz you'd be stopped mid-air by a silly jab (same as the air throw).


OMFG! He has a plank! Run for your life! (Weapons overview).

Seriously, Max's not only heavily dangerous unarmed, but he's also quite capable and mean with a weapon... especially bats/pipes/planks/swords. The other weapons he's okay but the swinging type it's certainly his forte and considering that it's quite easy to find enemies bringing pipes and bats to the fray then you are up for a groove!

Why is he so awesome with a swinging weapon?

1) CUZ HE CAN HIT MOOKS FROM BEHIND WITH IT! If that's not awesome enough then I dunno what else is. Now if you got a sword the damage it's huge and you can get rid of pesky, sneaky bastards who want to hit you from behind like the SOR1 Galsias or the dam troll ninjas. You can go swing happy and you'd be almost invulnerable!

2) Reach and speed. The reach of the weapon it's quite good and the swing speed it's also pretty good. Now add the hit from behind property and you get an almost invincible move.

3) Planks/pipes special move. Might not be as safe as the normal swing but the damage it's horrible, especially if u hit twice with it.

[badjab]

Lots of good tips in here, now what about Max's powerbomb. Any ideas on when to use that over his normal grabs?

[Elmo]

Great in-depth analysis again. Indeed the key to success with Max is NOT to try to walk towards enemies and grab them, but Blitz/jump and then do it.

I have some problems translating the grabs from the movelist into the somewhat different "grab"-terminology used in the discussion of the grabs further down - maybe you could add some reference.

Btw is there really a grab+X move using the power meter? (Or is that a typo and should rather be grab+A?) I can't remember myself because I played Max just once recently.

Elmo

[Don Vecta]

I have some problems translating the grabs from the movelist into the somewhat different "grab"-terminology used in the discussion of the grabs further down - maybe you could add some reference.

No worries, added the motion again next to the grab's name just as reference.

Personally haven't used the Powerbomb inside gameplay. Might do a run and experiment with it.

[Erpy]

The powerbomb is an interesting move. And yes, it uses the X-button, not the A-button. It acts like a special, so it'll drain your meter and if your meter isn't full, it'll cost life. It's not quite as strong as the neck breaker (nothing is), so why use it? It still hurts like crazy and I believe it's stronger than the mid-air throw. Unlike the neck breaker, which leaves you a sitting duck, the powerbomb is invincible from the moment you start it. (despite the fact Max doesn't look invincible while setting the enemy up for a powerbomb)

In fact, enemies who walk into you while you're performing the powerbomb will be knocked away as if they were hit by a thrown enemy. So if you grab an enemy from the front, you have a full meter and there's one or more other enemies nearby who you know will knock you out of the neck breaker before it does enough damage, go for the powerbomb instead.

[kmc]

Here's the beginning of a 2-hour mania walkthrough with Max
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dIF74iUHp0

I dunno if somebody here around achieve it, but there's quite a lot of strat there. Except that the author seldom uses his 2 star blitz and throws immediately useful weapons like pipe and swords.

[Emthree]

Great job Don Vecta !

I beat Mania solo with Max, I think he's my best character so far. Don't forget he also has the police call ability, which can be very useful on advanced levels and make the difference with other "agressive" characters like Shiva.

To really enjoy a Max playthrough, the main word is "slide". Enemies don't enjoy the 0/1 star blitz at all. It has huge range, makes you move through the screen, knocks some minions down and put you at the perfect place to bring other ones to their death. If it happens that some enemies come from behind while you are just getting up after a slide, just backwards + A them down, and slide back in the battle.
Note : if you slide from the right distance, you won't suffer the pause delay due to the need to stand up on your feet, because you will benefit an automatic grab. A quick backthrow will then protect you effectively against sneaky attackers.

Throws can be abused, by the way. Slide into a bunch of enemies, knocking a few down and stunning the others, grab one of them while rising, then throw him back or jump + throw him and see all the other ones being knocked down by your move. If your slide was a bit short, you can input a rush combo and/or a fwd +A special in the melee instead. After that, just slide out of that mess.

Some bosses are a pain in the ass for other characters but fall crying like little girls against Max. Abadede can easily be neutralized by running at him diagonally and knocking him down with a standard blitz, and even he or Shiva can be grabbed and have their heads crushed without escape (even on Mania, Abadede's co-co-combo breaker ! is useless against Max's headlock ; however it is still hard to grab him). The Molecule robots will not resist being continuously jump-thrown at each other, or dash-tackled. Just try to focus your hits on one of them, they are far weaker when there is one or two missing ; and keep moving vertically to dodge their electric rays.
The best part is fighting Bongos and Big Bens. Remember the flames ? Well you can slide under them or negate them with the fwd + A special ! And no worry which game they are from, you can throw all of them.

This is all I remember right now, I hope it will be useful for some of you. If needed, I might record a playthrough video, though, I am not sure how to do and my skills are not that good in comparison with some other forum members.

[BigDarsh]

Really good thread and I want to speak about cross down because it's not something that usefull unless with Max because he can't Vault and the Jumping Atomic Drop is all we love

How To Cross Down:
First set Jump Type SoR 3
Jump toward an opponent (let's say right)
Push Down + B when your mid air (the recovery is quite long and the hit detect too; so the sooner the better)
So as you have to jump right and push down to perform the jump in, you have to push the diagonal to have the best buffer.
Hold that diagonal til you hit your opponent then just before you recover from the hit, just push the opposite direction (so left in our case)
You will be teleported in the back and grabbing the opponent.
Huge Set of Atomic Drop!!!

All right, is it a glitch of SoRR?
No it was there in SoR3.

Why does it work?
Because of the buffer and the collision system.

In-Depht Explanation:
As you have air control in SoR3 jump type, the software consider you are moving to the right
As you are in collision with an opponent, the software consider that you would pass over your opponent, but you can't because his collision box block your way
When you land, the computer pick the first input as a priority, so he consider that noone block you anymore and you land in the back
As you input the opposite direction, just before landing, your character will grab, as you do with standard jump in.

Note: I discover this technical issue while fighting Shiva in SoRIII in the last stage as I was playing Axel.
I just knock him down once, then I jumpin' and he trie to anti air me but as I was just on top of him and on meaty state, I just made him whiff, and I punish him with a free back grab (with low damage because Axel is worst grabber of the game) but I just rinse and repeat til is dead.

Enjoy the DESTROYER
PS: the backdrop suplex from the back has a lot more damage than the one from the front.
Actually, the backdrop suplex from the back deal almost the same damage as the atomic drop, but as the Atomic Drop is an attack, it deals 100% of is damage on everyone that it hit, while the backdrop suplex only deal 100% of the damage to the enemy who is grab.

[kmc]

Really good thread and I want to speak about cross down because it's not something that usefull unless with Max because he can't Vault and the Jumping Atomic Drop is all we love
..

I've technically understood, but I can't get it consistently, can you repeat it several times in a video to get a better idea? Thanks.

[BigDarsh]

Sorry I don't have any material to make video but the thing is just about timing, and it's quite strict. The best way to train is after a knockdown, so you can have the meaty state quite preciseley and you have to land your jump at the "middle" of your opponent sprite.
Almost like a cross up actually.

I think you will get use to it with practice.

[Emthree]

This also works with the slide move. If you are at the right distance when performing it, Max will stun the enemy, but slide a bit further. Press back while Max is getting up to grab your target by behind. Though, I am not precise enough in the game and this is quite random wether the move works or not.

[Don Vecta]

Interesting. I'm gonna try this trick now. BRB.

EDIT: Yup, it is VERY hard to land due of 1) Max's low jump priority 2) the input (jump then d B then f then back in such a small gap of time it's hard, trying jump df B simply won't work, has to be f C, then d B, df and then on impact b) and 3) the enemies (i play on Mania and when Donnies are present, their uppercut anti-air spam makes the odds harder to land).

I only happened to perform it well twice but it's VERY hard to do.

[BigDarsh]

So i've did some tests in mania to precise my words but I see that things evolve since then lol

So yes, sorry, you have to push, forward jump then diagonal to earn time so:
Not d/f but, F then d/f B

If you use the SoR 2 jump, it works but you are confined to a proper distance so it's a lot harder to have good setup, but it's easier to perform (just do a strict cross up)

If you use the SoR 3 jump, you are more free about the distance, but the timing is more strict (because of the air control input)

It was easier in SoR3 because you can grab during hitstun.

It's clearly not an easy trick but it save my life more than once, especially on a group, because as they are several opponent, you have more chance to grab someone lol

But one thing: DO NOT JUMP ON DONOVAN with the Elbow:
Always Jump Forward B then immedialty Back.
A/ he will run toward it
B/ he will try to anti air it, but as he is to far (because your air control back) you will whif punish is uppercut (works on Cody too)

[atrocity3010]

Sorry to bump, but I'd like to share some input on Max. His slide is pretty much his most important move, and when he's actually sliding on the ground, as far as I can tell he's completely invincible. You can use this to slide through annoying attacks like Nora's jump kick (and because of her slow recovery, if you're fast enough you get a free atomic drop), Ninjo's jump slash, Jet's rushing punch, projectiles, etc. It's also useful if you're not quite in range of a downed enemy and you want to atomic drop them when they get up. You can time the slide so that it's "meaty" (meaning it hits right at the very end and you recover almost instantly), and get an atomic drop that way. One that I like to use on cowardly bosses like Souther is to slide, then do a thunder tackle.

His slide also makes a lot of the bosses easy. Shiva for example, often flame-kicks in response to a blitz, in which he's invincible. But you can slide through that and get a free atomic drop. Neo X is invincible when he gets up, and if he's next to you he'll try to kick you, but if you time the slide right you can get a meaty slide into two knees and a bear punch (5 hit grab combo). You can also slide Barbon/Souther/SOR1 Bongo as they get up. Barbon will either move away or do a roundhouse. If he does a roundhouse, you get a free atomic drop. Same thing with Souther, he'll move away or slash. SOR1 Bongo will always do an elbow drop, which you can atomic drop him afterwards.

Also very useful is Max's jumping hammer punch. It's a great defensive maneuver when you're in the corner and enemies are approaching, or if you want to hit an enemy when they get up. It always beats Donovan's uppercut as long as you let him come to you. It can also be used to hit certain enemies that are invincible when they get up (Electra, Jack, Antonio). Electra always tries to jump-kick you when she gets up, but if you do a jumping punch just as she rises, you'll hit her before she can hit you. Jack will try to punch and miss, and Antonio will whiff with his kick.

His jumping punch is also great against Mr. X once you've reduced him to less than a lifebar. Just let him come to you when he gets up, and knock him back down with the jumping punch.

[Don Vecta]

Sorry to bump, but I'd like to share some input on Max.

Don't apologize, these kind of threads are meant to be bumped to add something useful to his gameplay.

His slide is pretty much his most important move, and when he's actually sliding on the ground, as far as I can tell he's completely invincible.

While I wholeheartedly agree with all the input, tips and techniques with him, I have to tell you the slide is NOT invincible. What does have is that his vulnerability box is low, VERY low, thus it's very easy to bypass or ignore several moves since there's no collision with several moves which hitboxes are usually mid to high range, thus, easier to pass through them and hit them or go closer to grab.

Now, I've tried to do some slide challenges against some Signals... and SOR3 Signal's sometimes trump Max's. You could to do this yourself, it's fun to put both of them trying to slide each other.

EDIT: It IS completely invincible mid slide, not at the beginning.